If you’re in the mood for a podcast, of a political flavor, I’ve got one for you. My latest Q&A is with John Engler: here. Engler was governor of Michigan for three terms, 1991 to 2003. In our podcast, he and I talk about the Republican Party, past and present. (Engler is a Republican.) The Democratic Party, past and present. The media. U.S. presidents. Detroit sports (not an especially happy topic). So, you have two Michiganders, jawing. (I am from Ann Arbor, and Engler is from Isabella County, in the dead center of the state.)
Engler grew up on a farm and studied ag economics at Michigan State. He thought he might go to Chicago one day, to try his hand at the commodities markets. But he was a political whiz, a boy wonder: He was elected to the state legislature at age 22. That was the first of ten elections he would win. He lost none.
I think of Margaret Thatcher, who wanted to title her memoirs “Undefeated.” (She was defeated within her party, in that parliamentary system, but not at the polls.)
When Engler got to the legislature, there were many senior people who knew a lot about policy: transportation, mental health, education, criminal justice, etc. He learned a great deal from them. There were no term limits then, as there are now. Probably, most people favor such limits, but there is a “downside” to them, says Engler: You lose a lot of institutional knowledge and institutional memory.
There were mere time-servers in the old days, sure — but there were also a number of really valuable people. It takes a while, it takes some experience, to figure things out in a state capital.
Why did Engler become a Republican, way back? For one thing, he thought that government should be as close to people as possible: city or town government before county government; county government before state government . . .
Engler admired several politicians and statesmen, including two Michiganders: Gerald Ford and George Romney. The two big ones for him, however, were Ronald Reagan and Thatcher. He was impressed by what they accomplished, and how they went about doing it. He adds that, as a Catholic, he “always admired the role that Reagan and Bill Casey played with Pope John Paul II.” One of Engler’s prize possessions is a photo that was taken when he met JPII.
As the Soviet empire was collapsing, Engler traveled to Poland, where he met Solidarity figures. That was inspiring. Later, he met Thatcher, and in fact attended a campaign event with her. He also had her sign books for his triplet daughters.
Engler was shaped by the “freedom conservatism” of those days. (So was I, so were lots of others.)
Talking with John Engler is like talking with a ghost from the Republican past. A friendly ghost. He is a reformer, a problem-solver, with a big wonky streak. A student of policy as well as a practitioner of politics (or a former one). He speaks of welfare reform, education reform. He talks about the importance of work, the centrality of work, for human dignity and betterment. He speaks a language that is almost foreign today.
I put something to him: Nobody wants limited government, personal responsibility, free enterprise, the rule of law. People want big, paternalistic government, either left-wing or right-wing. They want a government that will give them what they want and hurt their (domestic) enemies.
Of course, I have exaggerated, but for a purpose.
Engler says that he could not be elected today. He also makes a point about the media, and the connection of the media to politics.
When he arrived at the state capital, he says — this was 1971 — the place was crawling with reporters. Every major newspaper had a bureau. There were AP reporters, UPI reporters. Everything and everyone got covered, one way or another. All of that is dried up. Reporters are thin on the ground.
Engler says that he is a fairly sophisticated consumer of news (an understatement). But even he has trouble finding out what’s going on in state politics. Instead of news, there is gossip on social media. And video clips flying around, devoid of context. “In an information age,” says Engler, “we’ve frankly never had less information about some decisions and deliberations.” That is a striking statement. And “when I do read a story,” says Engler, “I can’t tell what the other side is arguing,” because the story is written in a partisan vein.
Last November, there was an important abortion proposal on the ballot in Michigan. Too few voters, says Engler, had any idea what the proposal actually meant. There was too little debate. Across the nation, he says, marijuana was rapidly legalized. But without nearly enough debate or enough information.
There is plenty of performance on cable shows, as Engler says. Plenty of performative types whose “greatest attribute is their willingness to say anything, pretty much.” Problem-solving seems to be passé. Which is a shame, because we have no end of them. “It grieves me to see Congress not able to resolve these issues,” says Engler, “not able to compromise on anything.”
Compromise is not necessarily weakness, Engler stresses. It is often an indispensable step in achieving more in your preferred direction.
In a Q&A with me last month, George F. Will said that President Biden was a crashing disappointment in this respect: He could have governed as a centrist for a single term, then departed to general popularity. Engler says just the same. Instead, Biden has mouthed platitudes and gone left, and he appears to want another term.
Engler also says this: The Democrats, in his opinion, are short on talent, nationwide. “I have a hard time naming Democrats who could run for president.”
Gina Raimondo, says Engler, was the best Democratic governor. (She is now the commerce secretary.) Today, it would probably be Jared Polis of Colorado. How about Republicans? Engler likes a lot of them, including governors — and including Congressman Dan Crenshaw of Texas.
One thing you often hear — especially from young Republicans — is, “Conservatives never conserved anything.” I ask Engler what he thinks about that. He does not think much of it, to say the least. Matt Gaetz (for one Republican) goes on television and does his act. But what has he ever accomplished? What could he accomplish? Does he have any idea what John Engler, Tommy Thompson, Mike Leavitt, et al., accomplished? (No.)
Anyway, Engler has a lot to say, and a lot of experience behind it. Try him out. Again, here.